Again I sit and ponder upon this topic of holiness. I mean i know the definition of holiness and i know what the Bible says about holiness and holy living. The question i often ask myself is why isn't holiness being lived out and practiced? I am sick of hearing "well I'm definitely not perfect... i mean all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God." True that is right.. you're not perfect and yes, that is Scripture but notice "sinned" and "fallen" are in the PAST tense! God knows we can't be perfect although sometimes we put on that persona as Sunday morning Christians. So often especially college students even religion majors use this Scripture to make themselves feel better about their own sin in their lives. I think we sometimes get so caught up on not being perfect or sinful acts that we have committed in the past that we forget there is a future to be lived out and that future can be one of TOTAL consecration and holiness. Holiness isn't just for the people over 50 in our congregations. Holiness isn't just for pastors and district superintendents. Holiness is a real experience that is lived out starting with ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION and is maintained by consecrating oneself to the Lord and living a life of repentance for sins that are committed.
Just today I had a friend here at Trevecca say to me, "well i don't really think drinking alcohol makes you not a Christian". Before i get on my soap box I would like to point out that drinking alcohol is a whole other topic that i am sure i will address later. I just find it funny when Christians say "well i don't think the Bible means that" or "that's irrelevant because it's Old Testament and we are clearly the new covenant." I think sometimes people should just take scissors and cut out all the "stuff" in the Bible they don't agree with. I mean they are living this way anyway! Who are we to pick and choose with passages of Scripture are "right" or "wrong"? When did we acquire the power to mold our own form of Christianity? I'm just afraid sometimes that we are getting away from the principles of the faith. I'm glad that God doesn't allow me to form my own form of how "I want to live" because honestly I don't think it would be very beneficial or enjoyable. So instead of getting on the topic of alcohol with my friend who said this statement to me earlier today. I wanted to say "well drinking may not affect your relationship with God but what about the sex you have with your girlfriend?" My point here is this: I think when we try to justify ourselves or interpret the Bible in our own language and we play with it and mold into what we want it to say we are getting ourselves into trouble. Why can't we just listen to what God says and just follow it? Lord help me to follow your will and your way. Help me to hear clearly and clearly 100% obediently walk in all the light i have.
Sorry i got on one of my rants but i just needed to jot down some thoughts... feel free to comment! Just overlook the errors and sentence fragments, after all it is 4:00 a.m. :)
About Me
- Chris Skinner
- I'm a student at Trevecca right now. I am called to the ministry and im preparing to do so. I love sports almost to the point of idolatry! I love the Kentucky Wildcats. I am currently single and looking to be married in the next year so ladies please inquire!
9 comments:
Hello, oldest friend! I hope things are going well for you in Tennessee!
As for the "Old Testament is irrelevant because we are in a New Covenant," I would have to disagree and agree! I disagree because it is still very much relevant. It is our breaking of the law that we find ourselves in need of a Saviour (not only that, but the OT reveals the character and justice of God the Father). I would say that, for a new creation Christian, the laws in the OT are irrelevant. All of them. The ones about the Sabbath, the ones about murder, the ones about planting and harvesting, the ones about clothing, the ones about how to worship -- all of them. New creations do not live by the Law, at all, and are not expected to obey the commandments handed down to Moses.
Paul (I believe) says this every time he harps against those who wished to circumcise the Gentile Christians before they would be allowed to worship. New creation Christians are not under the Law *at all.*
The closest thing that comes to the Law for Christians is the list mentioned in Acts 21:20-25 (and sexual immorality is in there!). All people who follow Jesus are not following Jesus if they do these things.
That being said, Christians are not supposed to go out and murder, rape, steal etc. New creations are supposed to live by the Spirit of God (which I believe what Nazarenes call Sanctification, but there are tons of different words for it). They are supposed to empty themselves out completely (as Christ did) to allow the Spirit to work through them completely (as Christ did).
What is fascinating about this concept is it is far more pervasive than any list of commandments! This means that one can do very good things, things that the Law of Moses called for, and do it in the wrong spirit (do it out of selfishness, or to build oneself up), and it can still be sin!
If I keep myself from sexual immorality, but I do it because I don't want to get AIDS, that is not virtue. That is worship to the idol god of Self. If I go out and feed a homeless person, but I do it because I want people to think I'm a good person, and not to honor God in obedience, it is a sin. If I share the Gospel with another person because I see them as dirty vermin, and they need to fit to my standard of being, it is a sin. If I preach a message on Sunday morning, because I want people to see me as holier than another church, I would probably question if that is sin.
You mentioned 1 Cor 6:12-17 to me. This is the ethic of Jesus. Those who say "hey! I'm allowed to do this!" are all seeking themselves first (plus they were doing some pretty rank things). If they were looking at each other as each one higher than themselves, and were living in obedience and submission, there would be no question.
The ethic of Jesus (our new Law, how we live by the Spirit) calls us to not only not do bad things against our neighbor, but to love them, and do for them as Christ Himself would love and do.
Of course the Ethic of Jesus, knowing God, and having Jesus as Savior can only come though the humbling of oneself, and then the emptying of oneself to the truth of God. If one is still attached to his/herself, then they are bound to Hell for sure.
I love you, Chris!
I hope this wasn't just restating your post in different words!
-Brett
Yeah! We are not under the law. The ten commandments do not apply anymore! The Old Testament is just for "intelligencia" who like to study that stuff!
I don't believe in it! We are not under law, but under grace... irresistible grace. That's why I sin every day in thought, word, and deed! It doesn't matter!
No...wait... nevermind!
hahahaha.. that ol' Jared Henry is a funny man. But I obviously agree. I feel like if you still hold high the OT especially the 10 commandments it's almost like you're a fundamentalist or a nazi conservative. Oh well i like being a nazi conservative.. after all somebody has to wage war with these postmoderns and liberals! kidding.
I talked with Chris, and apparently my point was lost in vague language (which I didn't realize was vague).
Every time I mention "the Law," or "Law," I am referring to the Torah. This includes the 10 commandments.
Romans 8 says everything I would try to say, only (a million times) better.
We are not under a law code anymore at all. No Torah, no 10 commandments, no nothing (the closest thing we get is the four rules by the Apostles). We get the "law of the Spirit" (it had been a while since I read Romans before rereading it today, and had no clue Paul used "law" so much in that passage), and the Spirit will no guide us into breaking any commandment, but still, we have no commandments to break, anymore.
That is to say, life by the "law" of the Spirit will lead to a holy, God-pleasing life. We won't murder, we won't steal, we won't have any other Gods before Yaweh, and we won't sin against God or our consciences.
Still, I stand by the thing I said earlier. The implication of the law of the Spirit is it opens up all kinds of opportunities to sin. The Pharisees followed the Law perfectly (they did everything right according to their peers) and still were counted as sinners in the eyes of Christ (they did everything wrong because they had rotten hearts).
We just don't have a list of "dos and don'ts." We have no "law code," but we have the Spirit to guide us.
And counterpoints are more constructive than snarky comments.
I don't get where the law no longer applies?
I don't think we are 'under it' but I do think we cannot go around break it.
(I distinguish between moral law, ceremonial law, and political law in the OT. Yes, there is some overlap.)
Ceremonial law was done away with after the crucifixion. The political is no longer applicable since we are no longer living in Israel (as it once was).
But I do think the moral law still applies.
I'd like to hear Brett clarify his stance by answering this question:
If you become a Christian and are no longer under the law does that mean you can live however you want to?
What happened to Christ? He started strong then disappeared?
I like snarky comments!
They are witty and make for a good laugh!
The way I see things, (and the way I read Paul, I think this is how he saw things as well) is that a Gentile Christian is not bound to the Law of Moses at all. For a Jewish Christian to tell a gentile Christian that they must obey the Law of Moses in order to be saved in whole or in part is wrong.
What I think about when I think about the Law of Moses is the scripture in Romans 7:1-6, which cumulates in the v6, where Paul says: "But now we have been released from the Law (of Moses), having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."
It was a terrible, and horrible mistake of mine to be vague in the beginning where I clumped "the law" in all "law." The Law of Moses is very different from the law of the Spirit. It's the difference between doing a task by an instruction book, and doing a task with a mentor. If we are bound to the 10 commandments, then we are also bound to some of the lesser known laws like Lev 19:19, where we are commanded to not wear clothing woven of two different material. We find these Laws untimely, and we don't follow them, yet, in the eyes of the Law, it is sin.
That being said, Paul, Jesus, and the other writers of the NT talk tons and tons about sin. It is obvious and quite apparent that sin still exists, and it's fully possible for a gentile Christian (a second birth, second baptism Christian) to sin.
Sin comes from doing an action out of the selfish intention of a carnal heart. The Pharisees did a superb job on following the Law of Moses, but their actions were not credited to them as righteousness. They were following the Law of Moses in a selfish way, ignoring the people of God, but they followed the commands exactly.
Another huge verse that has stood out to me was Romans 14:23 (talking about how we Christians can eat anything) where Paul says "... and everything that does not come from faith is sin." If I have a conviction for (or against) something that is God-given, fully tested (recommended action by the writers of the NT), and does not conflict with the teachings of Jesus, and you disobey that conviction, it is sin.
Question 1: If you become a Christian and are no longer under the law does that mean you can live however you want to?
I'm fully anti-Judaizer (but not anti-Semitic!), but I still believe in sin. I believe the life of a Christian is well summed up in Galatians 5:13-26 (v13: You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature... v18: But if you are led by the Spirit, **you are not under law.**).
Our measuring stick is not by the letter of the Law of Moses, but by example and teaching of Jesus. We have ethic, the Spirit, and the teachings of Jesus (all very much alive), and not a static Law (of Moses) where we seek to find loopholes so we can live the way we want to and still "obey."
And example of that is this: Apparently there is a orthodox sect of Judaism out of Russia (Lubavitchers) that has a rule that wives must have their head covered when in public (I did a 45 second search, but I couldn't find it in the Law, so it might be in the Talmud). Wives, in response, wear wigs in public. This is a loophole that completely misses the ethic in the rule: cover your head because your beauty belongs to your husband, and not to any random man.
We don't have that! We have a Guide, lovingly showing us what love and holiness are! We don't follow rules in a way where we can look for loopholes, but we have an ethic than transcends the Law of Moses.
Question 2: What happened to Christ? He started strong then disappeared?
Christ is everything! Christ is the fulfillment of the Law! Christ is plan of salvation that God had since Abraham. Christ is the promised seed of Abraham though which we become heirs of the blessing of God. Christ is the Way to eternal life, and reconciliation with God. Without Christ, we would still be under the curse of Adam, for following the Law of Moses cannot grant us the sonship that the Grace of God can supply (which was brought though Christ). Christ is also the great Example, and the Giver of the Spirit (our new "law").
If you are asking me something concrete like
"Is it a sin if I sleep with my girlfriend?" I would ask if the intention of the asker is seeking to be the sacrifice which is living, holy, and God-pleasing. I would say they are probably living self-serving, self-centered lives and care little about being a slave to Christ. Scripture explains that the Spirit of God does not find any kind of sexual immorality as God-pleasing, so I would say they are probably sinning. According to Paul's teaching, he says if someone professes Christ and sins (as we can discover the nature of Spirit from scripture, plus this was in the four big rules that the first council put together) in this way, they are to be kicked out of the congregation.
I'm not a "licensist." I don't believe that we can be drunkard, gluttonous, sexually immoral people and still follow the Spirit, or the teachings of Christ. If one lives a life poured out to God, to walk as Christ walked, do as Christ did, love as Christ loved, and obeyed as Christ obeyed, there is not much room (or much desire) to be drunk, have sex outside of marriage, or to hoard material things.
If you take a sinner, and you tell them that they have a Law to follow, and you get the sinner to follow the Law, you don't have a convert. If the sinner's heart is not turned toward God and is living by the Spirit, the sinner is still a sinner.
Quite of a few of the Pharisees were sinners in Jesus' day. They were just too proud (and self-serving) to see it. Without the repentant heart, and the recognized need to sacrifice their whole self to God (more than 10%!), there is no hope. There is no virtue in the heart of a selfish man.
I know I either made a horrible typo that I can't find, left something way too vague, or cited something wrong. Point it out, and I'll do my best to share what God is showing me.
hello?
anyone there?
I was about to say the same thing!
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